Rebecca Zung: How to Know if You’re Dating a Narcissist

Today, in the Scheer Madness Podcast, Rebecca Zung joins Rachel to talk about narcissism. She explains that having a healthy level of narcissism is okay, the signs that the person you’re talking to is a narcissist, how you can protect yourself by setting boundaries, and the best way to negotiate the outcome that you want. 

Rebecca Zung is one of the Top 1% of attorneys in the nation, having been recognized by U.S. News & World Report as a “Best Lawyer in America”, as “Legal Elite” by Trend Magazine, and recognized by her peers and the judiciary as AV(c), preeminent rated in family law, the highest possible rating for an attorney by Martindale Hubbell. She is the author of the bestselling books, Negotiate Like You M.A.T.T.E.R.: The Sure Fire Method to Step Up and Win (foreword by Robert Shapiro) and Breaking Free: A Step-by-Step Divorce Guide for Achieving Emotional, Physical, and Spiritual Freedom, and is a sought after major media contributor. 

For more information about working with our team at Rachel Scheer Nutrition, book a free 30-minute call at  


  • 00:00 Intro
  • 02:14 How did you get into this kind of work?
  • 08:24 First encounter with a narcissist
  • 11:36 Is there a healthy amount of narcissism?
  • 14:28 Can narcissists heal from narcissism?
  • 18:33 Victor mindset versus victim mindset
  • 22:09 How to protect yourself
  • 24:31 Signs that you’re talking to a narcissist
  • 29:32 People will think what you tell them to think
  • 34:26 Negotiating the best life you want
  • 38:06 How your decision matters

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Podcast Transcript:

Rebecca Zung: There’s certain things that are to negotiable and there’s certain things that are not right. I mean, you know, you can negotiate terms of a contract, but you’re not gonna negotiate your self worth. You’re not gonna negotiate your self respect. Insanity 

Rachel Scheer: is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, but if you are ready to level up your life and get results that truly matter in your health, business mindset and relat.

Then this is the podcast for you. Welcome to Sheer Madness, where we have unscripted real conversations with the world’s top athletes, entrepreneurs, and coaches discover real world and tactical advice from the best in the business. Let’s go. Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Shared.

Today is gonna be an interesting show because I have Rebecca Zung joining us here today, and she is one of the top attorneys here in the United States, but she’s also an expert in negotiation and she’s known online as the Narcissist Slayer, where she gives incredible tips on how to deal with toxic people in your life, but also how to.

The life you want and be more persuasive. So I’m honored here to introduce Rebecca Zg. Welcome to the 

Rebecca Zung: shower. Thank you. I’m so honored. And. I love, absolutely love hanging out with you. We always have so much fun. Yeah. We’ve 

Rachel Scheer: had an awesome time getting to know each other through some other mutual friends.

Yeah. And I remember our friend Amber was like, You guys just need to meet, um, Rebecca, she’s a narcissist player. And I was like, What the heck is that? Yeah. Um, but it’s been so interesting because this isn’t a subject that I feel like. I have a whole lot of education in, um, but I’ve learned so much from following you on social media and being able to pick out certain things where I’m like, Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense as to why I felt that way in that relationship with that person.

So I know everybody’s gonna get so much out of today’s episode here, but before we dive in to like all things narcissism and even on like the art of persuasion, how did you get into this line of work? I know there’s an interesting backstory there. Yeah. 

Rebecca Zung: Well, I mean, obviously it’s not the kind of thing that, you know, you go, Oh, I wanna grow up and, you know, do narcissism negotiation.

It’s not like I was pretending that Ken was a narcissist when I was playing Barbies, . Okay. No, I, I, Well, first of all, um, I was an attorney By trade, I mean I am an attorney. Mm-hmm. , and, uh, I did have narcissists in my practice. Uh, I did high net with divorce for a long time. I don’t. Practice anymore regularly, but I, uh, or at all.

But I definitely had a lot of narcissists in my practice when I did high net worth divorce, but I really didn’t even know that those people were narcissists at that time. But a few years ago, I merged my practice with a couple of other guys, and mostly because I. I really am an entrepreneur at heart and my daughter, who’s now 20, was just starting high school and I wanted to spend more time with her.

So I started to do some entrepreneurial things. Mm-hmm. a lot of different things that were entrepreneurial and in one of those endeavors, one of them, you know, I, I partnered up with somebody who ended up to be, What turned out to be a covert narcissist, and I didn’t even realize that that kind of person existed.

I didn’t know anything about covert narcissism. I, the person turned out to, you know, she was a female. I didn’t know females could be narcissist at all. Yeah. And, but I did know that it was, A horrible, heinous experience. It ended up triggering a lot of things for me. I was bullied as a kid and you know, there were a lot of things that ended up to be triggering for me, uh, that brought out stuff like that in me that I thought was long gone, buried dust in the wind, you know?

And. , You know, here I had one of the top family law practices in the country. I mean, I had a very great life, lots of, you know, really wonderful things in in my life at that point. So it wasn’t like, Oh, I had this horrible life or anything like that. It was all good, but, , when I was into this relationship, which was a business relationship mm-hmm.

all of a sudden I felt confused. I felt helpless. I felt. You’re small. I felt, you know, in the middle of the night, I’m waking up, I’m thinking about it. I’m thinking about it, and, you know, while I’m brushing my teeth, I’m, I feel paranoid. I, you know, all of the things that you experience when you’re in a relationship with a narcissist and.

I went on vacation with my family and I, you know, I, I just thought I’m, I’m getting out of this relationship. I realized, oh my God, every minute I’m thinking about this person. I’m allowing myself to be a victim. I’m not in creation mode, and I just made a decision at that moment. I’m getting out of this relationship.

I’m, I’m. Made a decision. I’m getting out and at that moment I just decided, I’m finishing this negotiation book that I had started and I came down from that mountain I was in in in Hawaii at that time where at the top of this beautiful mountain came down from that mountain and I said, I’m finishing this negotiation book.

I’m getting outta this relationship, which I did. Mm-hmm. that negotiation book. Robert Shapiro ended up writing the Forward for he, um, you know, it goes to number one on Amazon that becomes nego, negotiate like you matter. And only after all of that, and that was only in December of 19. When I first, somebody said, You know, that person was a covert narcissist, and that was when I was 

Rachel Scheer: like, What is that?

So someone else kind of brought it to your attention. Someone else brought 

Rebecca Zung: it to my attention, and so I. Started reading about it and that’s when I started applying what I had already learned about negotiation to what I was learning about narcissism, and that’s when I started to really see movement in my cases.

I was still practicing law at the time, and that’s when I started talking about it on YouTube and. You know, so it was then that I created a course around it called Slay or Negotiation. Yeah. With a narcissist. And it was then right after that, the Covid Covid hit, You know, I was dividing my time between California and Florida, so I couldn’t fly back to Florida anymore at that point.

So we really just said, Okay, let me, let me do a video on how to negotiate with a narcissist. It blows up. It’s blown up so much. Yeah. Yeah. And. That’s really, you know, so it’s really just over two years now that I have now almost 30 million views on YouTube. Yeah. In just two years. It’s crazy what’s happened in my life, but that’s, that’s how it kind of came to 

Rachel Scheer: be.

That that’s, it is such a cool story because I know typically when you think of narcissism, My brain tends to think of like romantic relationships. My brain goes back to like this romantic relationship in and why I felt so small and why I felt like I, you know, could never really speak for myself and how everything was always turned around and was my fault in so many different areas, at least after reading so many of the stuff that like you put out there.

But it’s so interesting that you know, First kind of encounter with narcissism was actually in a business setting and it was with a female because I think that’s almost where we’re probably even more vulnerable because we, we don’t expect it as much, I think in like a business setting. I can imagine.

You know, and, 

Rebecca Zung: Yeah. Yeah. Not only that, but I’m an attorney. I had negotiated for years and years and years. Pretty powerful attorney. Yeah. Um, and so, you know, and I, and I had to get over that blame and shame because I was like, I don’t wanna have to admit to people that I had this happen to me. You know, I felt like I’m supposed to be strong.

I’m supposed to be this badass attorney. You know, I was actually really ashamed that this happened to me, but then I, I. Think No, they don’t. They don’t attach themselves to you because you have so little value. They attach themselves to you because you have so much value. Wow. You know, they don’t want the the, the Blue Lights Clearance Rack special.

They are opportunists. Yeah. They want. The shiny object that they can attach themselves to that make them look good. You know, 

Rachel Scheer: that, that’s such a powerful reframe because I know for so many people who’ve been in toxic relationships with people, whether it was a narcissist or just any kind of a toxic relationship, we, we put so much blame on ourself.

But I, I love that you say, you know, Narcissists in particular, like they focus in on people who have massive value because that’s, I would imagine, intimidating to them. So their thought process is, how can I make this person small in order to make myself feel better? Is that correct? 

Rebecca Zung: Well, it’s, I think it’s twofold.

It’s not only that, but it’s also attaching. Themselves to somebody who’s going to make them look better. Mm-hmm. , Because if I attach myself to this person, then I look better because people see me with this person. And then if I can also, Make this person smaller, gain control over this person, use passive aggressive skills, or degrade this person in some way.

Then now I am more powerful because I’ve been able to make this person smaller who I already thought. Hi, you know, more highly of. So if I can gain control over this person, look at me. Yeah. Look what I’ve been able to do. 

Rachel Scheer: Yeah. And I really wanna break down what are some of the traits to look for with in Narcissist?

Cuz I know there’s different ranges I would imagine of it. I know when we were having dinner one night, um, you. I asked you, I was like, is there a healthy amount of narcissism? Because I’m like, I, I sometimes feel like I have a lot of, like, I take pride and, you know, one of my, my needs is really kind of that, um, an achievement kind of thing.

So I know there’s like some degrees of it, but. First question I have is, is there a healthy amount of narcissism that we can have? Absolutely, yes. And then where does it become toxic and damaging? 

Rebecca Zung: There is definitely a healthy amount of narcissism, so it is good to have a good perspective about yourself.

And it’s actually, they actually say there’s a healthy amount of narcissism in the sense it’s good to. See yourself as a, maybe a little bit better than you are in a sense. Mm-hmm. , you know, Um, but where it becomes unhealthy is where you actually. Have no sense of care, compassion, or empathy for other people.

You literally cannot see other people’s needs. And, and it is a spectrum, you know, I mean, so you have to look at it as all the way to the other end of a spectrum where, You, you cannot see anything about the other person. So the way I like to describe narcissism is you have to picture a person who has like a black hole inside of them.

Mm-hmm. and they’re. Completely and totally, they feel totally and completely empty inside. And they’re, it’s like they’re starving, gasping for breath, desperate for air. It, they’re like in survival mode all the time. And it’s, it’s scarcity to the utmost extreme. And so if you’re in survival mode, you know, almost like you’re on the side of a mountain and you.

Starving. Desperate. Then you, That’s why you can’t see anything about the other person. Cuz you’re, if like, if you’re, have a toothache or something right? You just, you can’t see anything about the other person at that time. Cuz all you can think about is that toothache, that pain. Mm-hmm. . Right? And so that’s what it is.

And so when another person comes along, you know this other person who’s probably. Very empathic, very caring, very, you know, you know, wants to fill that hole for, for this other person. Well, then the narcissist wants you to fill it too. So you wanna fill it. They want you to fill it. And so, You know, you’re there trying to fill this hole that can’t be filled, so you’re left feeling totally and utterly depleted.

Yeah. Yet they’re still starving. Yeah. Because it can’t be filled. And so that’s what’s happening. And, and so they’re in scarcity mode all the time, and yet it, it cannot be healed. It cannot be fixed. So that’s what narcissism really is. And it’s, it, you know, it’s, it is a personality disorder. 

Rachel Scheer: Okay? It is a disorder.

So do you think once a narcissist, always a narcissist? It is. Or, and no, you can’t like heal from. It’s very rare. Rare. It’s very rare. Not impossible, but rare. 

Rebecca Zung: It’s rare. Okay. It’s rare. I mean, of all of the mental health professionals that I’ve spoken to, you know, some of them have said, It. It’s has happened, but it’s pretty rare.

You know, they have to have like a complete, an utter breakdown. Basically. You know, something happens in their life where, Or they have that extreme catalyst. Extreme catalyst, and it’s pretty rare. I mean, the problem is with that particular disorder, they don’t go and ask for help. Yeah. And. So, you know, of, of all the mental health issues out there, that’s the least likely person who’s gonna be self-aware.

Go ask for help, you know, accept help when, when it’s offered. You know, So most, a lot of the mental health professionals that I’ve actually interviewed have said, They won’t even take narcissist as clients. 

Rachel Scheer: Wow. Wow. And that’s like definitely on the extreme side. And I know for the way my brain works is I’m like very root cause focused.

I love the psychology piece of it. So I can’t always help to ask the question of like, what are the root causes for like someone. Developing narcissism and like stepping into that place, you know, of such scarcity. Cuz that’s really what it sounds like. It’s just an utter place of scarcity and emptiness that this person has where they’re, they’re blaming and they’re, it’s everybody else’s fault, but also everyone else’s responsibility, right.

To, to, to fix a lot of that within themselves. So I believe, at least with some mental health issues, a lot of that stems from trauma, you know, that has happened. Yes, in their life. I have my father who is actually mentally ill, he’s homeless and, um, one of the reasons why I’m so passionate about mental health, but I’ve watched him, you know, throughout the years and his mental health really deteriorate more and more and more.

One because he’s never really sought the help to dive in, to do the work of where a lot of his trauma came from. Um, had a very verbally abusive father, you know, relationship stuff. And over these years he’s kind of like created this false reality because the pain of actually being in actual reality was, was too much.

And I don’t think as a conscious right belief, it’s like this subconscious thing that our brain does to. Really at the core. And now he has this like, alternate reality and he is homeless and can barely support himself. So I have, I have such compassion for people who have mental health issues, but I, I, I think so much of it comes from that 

Rebecca Zung: trauma piece.

And it is, it is absolutely trauma. They have the most amount of shame. Hmm. I mean, if you, um, you know, Bne Brown talked about how of all the shame. You know, every, all of us have a certain amount of shame. Narcissists have the most amount of shame, Absolutely the most amount of shame. However, and yes, we could have compassion for them.

However, that doesn’t mean you have to live in that. Yeah. And you, you don’t have to continue to. Be in that space and you know, when it comes to negotiating with them, which is what I talk about mm-hmm. , you know, you have to understand that, you know, we’re talking about 15% of the population and you know, so you cannot negotiate with them like you would any other regular reasonable.

people. Hmm. And, and to apply the regular rules of communication negotiation, you know, dealing with managing. To everybody as a blanket rule. It, it’s, it’s just completely naive. Yeah. It’s a naive, um, approach. 

Rachel Scheer: So how can we stay in being in a victor mindset instead of that victim kind of mindset? And I wanna ask this question in a kind of two parts.

One, when dealing with narcis, Um, but two, just from like a totality standpoint, because I think all my listeners would really benefit, and I know that’s something you talk about quite a bit, but just in life, like how can we. Like, stay in this place of like, I’m in control of my life and not fall into, you know, the patterns of being a victim.

Because I think dealing with a narcissist or not aside, like that’s a, a place that just a lot of us can really fall into in 

Rebecca Zung: life. Yeah. Well, for one thing you have to understand that they are who they’re, there will always be narcissists in this world. They will always be toxic instead of looking over at their side of the.

Focusing on you and your side of the fence is so, so important. And that’s the why in my Slay mentality and my Slay methodology, you know, so slay stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and focus on you, but you is like almost the most important piece of it. 99% of. Winning happens before you even walk into a room or before you do anything because you know they will always be toxic.

They will always be who they are, but you know, you will always be the most powerful version of yourself. And the truth of the matter is they are actually way more afraid of you than you are of them. Hmm. Deep down inside of them, they are actually very, very, very fearful. The, the root cause of them is fear.

They’re very, very fear based individuals. Very, very fear based individuals. Yeah. Um, you know, there was almost two, well, there are like kind of two parts of their personalities. There’s their true self and their false self, and their true self is a, is a very scared individual. Mm-hmm. very scared individual.

Yeah. So it sounds a 

Rachel Scheer: lot like. Focusing on ourself and how we can really show up and stay grounded in ourself. I know that’s something that I, I speak to a lot just with holistic health and functional medicine, but like, knowing who you are versus like walking in and being in that fear place of like, what are they gonna do?

Almost like boundaries in a lot of ways, like having those boundaries, just like we set boundaries with ourself, um, but setting boundaries with other people. And I know boundaries aren’t about what other people do. It’s about, you know, What we allow in. Correct. 

Rebecca Zung: Yeah. Well, I mean, there’s certain things that are to negotiable and there’s certain things that are not right.

I mean, you know, you can negotiate terms of a contract, but you’re not gonna negotiate your self worth. Mm-hmm. , you’re not gonna negotiate yourself respect, you know? That’s a good one. 

Rachel Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. Not gonna no. Negotiate you guys your self worth and you’re not gonna No. Negotiate your self. In any circumstance and it’s, it’s hard I think, sometimes to grasp, but I think we do negotiate that quite a bit.

And I actually just had a girl on my podcast and we were talking a lot about self-esteem, but at the core of self-esteem is what we think of ourselves and not what other people think of us at the core. So we have to think in. , you know, have that sense of value and trust in ourself, which is, I know something that a lot of people struggle with.

Um, and that’s how we can really stay in that place, right. Of like, I’m, I’m the victor, versus easily falling into that place of being the victim. 

Rebecca Zung: Yeah. But sometimes the first negotiation that we do with ourselves is for our own. With our own selves for our own self worth in the morning. Right. You know, so I, I always say that I don’t allow my thoughts to be unsupervised, you know, you know, so I, I try to be very careful about.

Listening to good podcasts or listening to good auto audio books or whatever, you know, just staying in that positive mindset at all times. Because, you know, narcissists will wanna take over. They will want to. Tell you that you’re worthless or that you know everything is your fault, or that everything that you do is wrong, or everything that went wrong in their lives is your fault or all of that.

And if you listen to that, that constant tape all the time, Hmm, then you, you know, and especially, If, if you already had your own trauma too. Mm-hmm. , and a lot of times they attract people who are codependent or who are, you know, even though you, you are an empath sometimes, you know. It’s an empath, narcissist attraction, partially because you wanna fix them because you think you can.

And a lot of times it’s because you also had your own trauma. Mm-hmm. . And so there’s this codependent. Hmm. You know, need and, um, it’s not necessarily a healthy relationship. There’s a symbiotic sort of relationship going on there too. Yeah, 

Rachel Scheer: that makes a lot of sense. Like our own traumas and our own, you know, triggers are oftentimes the areas that leave us very vulnerable and susceptible to a narcissist.

Rebecca Zung: Absolutely. And then they’ll go, they’ll say things like, I’m the only one who loves you. I’m the only one who’ll take care of you. Your family doesn’t even love you. I. And they’ll, they’ll feed into that, you know? Yeah. I’m the only one who can show you love. Look at that. Look at what they’re doing, you know?

And then you start believing these lies. Yeah. 

Rachel Scheer: So, On the topic of narcissism, I then I wanna switch gears to negotiation cuz you’re a badass negotiator and I definitely have to pick your brain on that. But what are three things that people should look for if identifying someone who could be a narcissist in their life?


Rebecca Zung: Well the first thing is, you know, as they, they come on really super fast, super strong, almost. And overpowering how quickly the relationship starts. I mean, it’s the love bombing in a way. The love bombing. Yeah. Yeah, the love bombing. It’s like too much too soon, too, too fast. You, you’d almost don’t even get a chance to think and, And that’s what they want.

They don’t want you to have a chance to think, and that’s what happened with me, even in the business relationship, you know? I mean, I had. Something that, you know, an endeavor that had was something that I had already had an idea around, but this person came along and they were like, Oh, you know, I could help you with that.

I have all these great contacts, you know, you should put my name on it, and you know, But so it, it doesn’t necessarily have to be romantic, I mean, but even in romantic sense, it’s, you know, we’re perfect for each other. The stars have aligned. Where have you been on my life? And they make you feel like you’re the most amazing, incredible human that you know, that they’ve ever met.

And. You just don’t even have a chance to breathe and they wanna get to the next level as soon as possible. Committed, locked in and, and if you want, if you even hesitate at all, they give you all the reasons why you shouldn’t be hesitating. Because why wait. You know, we’ve been waiting all of our lives for this.

This is amazing. You. Get there, get there, get there, get there, and then as soon as you get there, then red flags, things aren’t lining up. Things are, you know, you’re seeing gaps in their stories, holes in their stories, problems. Passive aggressive things are happening. They’re not doing what they said they’re gonna do.

Things aren’t. Following through, there’s problems, and then it’s somebody else’s fault, you know? Or there’s, you know, it’s your fault, or, or, and then it becomes your fault right away, and then they’re ghosting you. What? You know, what happens is at the beginning of the relationship that couldn’t get enough.

It was a thousand text messages a day. It was this, that, and the other day they were showing up all the time. You, you know, But then as soon as they’re locked in, now you’re texting, you’re emailing your this through. Nothing, nothing crickets. And you’re going, where are you? What’s happening? And now it’s, I can’t, I can’t email you every minute of the day.

Now you, all of a sudden you’re needy. It’s wrong with you. Now all of a sudden they tables turn it’s hot and cold and you know, and they, they treat you like there’s something wrong with you. And now, It’s like you’re this hanger on and, and it, there’s, you know, problems in the relationship and all kinds of issues and, but then if they sense you’re pulling away, then it’s back to the love bomb.

Yeah. And a future fake. And you’ll see things will be better and, you know, and, and so this toxic stew on and on and on, and. Until you can you finally try to get out of this thing. And it’s a nightmare because you become Public Enemy number one. Of course, they wanna just take you down. And so that’s basically the it in a nutshell.


Rachel Scheer: With the process of it all, like overly excitement, overly love way too fast, and then kind of this where things aren’t lining up, not following through on the things they say, gaps in their, their stories, um, Right. Probably some lies is thrown in there too that you’re starting to pick up on. That doesn’t make sense, Not it’s not true.

And then almost like this withdrawal, but then really pointing the finger back at you. Yes, exactly. Wow. Exactly. Okay. So, 

Rebecca Zung: yeah, and you know, normally, you know, they, they don’t have a whole lot of friends or there’s some stop story in their past. You know, they had a crazy ex or they had a sob story about their family, or, you know, There’s usually that kind of thing as well.

Rachel Scheer: Yeah, yeah. Some backstory. Excuse. Mm. It kind of sounds like too as to why things are happening the way they are. Exactly. You put some awesome information I know up there about narcissism, but one thing I know that you’re also incredible at speaking to is really negotiating and creating the. That you want for yourself.

And I know when we were actually at dinner that night, you told this story that I thought was so freaking powerful about, and I’m probably gonna butcher it, so I’m gonna let you share, but I, I’m sure you know what I’m talking about, where it was you were about to walk into some kind of a, a meeting, but you background didn’t line up and someone gave you some kind of a, it was 

Rebecca Zung: it when I was talking, when I was maybe leaving, um, the practice of.

Um, when I was going back to my practice of 

Rachel Scheer: law, maybe it was your belief in walking into this and having kind of a different background in what you were stepping into and the belief Yeah. And the persuasion piece that you had. Okay. So I was gonna butcher. 

Rebecca Zung: Yeah. I think it was when I was, um, I had been practicing law for about eight years and then I was, uh, a wealth advisor for Morgan Stanley for a few years.

And then I was going back to the practice of law and. I was so worried that everybody in Naples, Florida was gonna think I was such a flake because I thought, ugh. You know, I was first she was a lawyer and then she was a wealth advisor and back to being a lawyer, and I thought, Ugh. So I said to my business, um, Coach at the time, I thought, Oh, people are gonna think I’m such a flake, you know?

And she said, Well, people will think that you’re a flake if you say that you’re a flake. Or you can tell. She said, People will think that what you tell them to think. She said, People will think that you’re a flake if you tell them to think that you’re a flake. Or you can tell them to think that. , you are the only family law attorney in town that has a financial background, so therefore you are actually more qualified than any other family law attorney in town.

Which story would you like to tell? Hmm. And I was like, Oh, maybe I’ll tell. That, that version, 

Rachel Scheer: that’s just, Okay, I’m pausing there cuz that’s just so powerful. And when you told that story, you know, I think that’s always the decision that we get to make. We could do, who do we believe that we are and what do we wanna step into?

We always have this other side popping up like, Ugh, I’m a fraud, I’m a flake, I’m not good enough. And we can carry that. We can walk into meetings with that. We can walk into a podcast with that. I know I definitely have those thoughts come up, but one thing I always speak to is just because you. Thought doesn’t mean it’s true.

Or you can say, Actually that’s why I’m this much more quality of vibe. That’s why I’m gonna be good at my job. That’s why I’m a, a badass with everything that I do here. And I think that’s just such this powerful shift in one of those big, pivotal moments in our life where we’re like, whatever I believe.

Is actually what’s gonna be the truth. And you walked into that meeting and you carried Yeah. That second belief. Yeah. 

Rebecca Zung: So I, I, so I, you know, I was like, Yeah, maybe I’ll do it that way instead. And so within two years I had one of the top family law practices in Florida representing billionaires.

Celebrities, top people, and clearly people who were not gonna have hired a flake. Mm-hmm. . Right. But had I gone in and apologized, Oh, I’m so sorry, you know, that I switched around so much. Mm-hmm. , you know, then that’s what people would’ve seen. They would’ve seen like this person who was apologizing for my background, but I went in with power.

Mm-hmm. and I said, This is who I am, um, better than everybody else because I’ve got this background. People will think what you tell them to think. Mm, Right. So all these people hired me because I had. Way better background. Mm-hmm. . So people will think what you tell them to 

Rachel Scheer: think, people will think what you tell them to think.

And I think that’s just such a powerful note for all of us to take in because like we tend to just fall back into that other thought pattern so easily. And I think that’s normal. Like it is normal for us to question ourself and not always to feel a hundred percent confident all the time. At least I know.

Always been a hundred percent confident. Yeah. But I think it’s a choice. Like you get, you have these both sides, like we always have that inner battle in between us and we’re like, Which 1:00 AM I gonna choose to act on? Which 1:00 AM I gonna choose to believe to be true? I talk to the, my clients all about this all the time.

You know, they come to work with me to heal their gut, No mean condition or anything like that. And I, I tell ’em from the get go, like your belief actually matters the most. Like you can tell yourself over and over again, I’m not gonna heal. I’m not gonna get better. That’s probably gonna be the truth. Or you can tell yourself, You know what?

I’m gonna heal. I’m getting better, I am healed. And that belief carries so much further and I know so many people’s stories who, you know, started on like a autoimmune protocol. And I know I’m going on the functional side, but. They just made that decision. They just had this moment in time where they go, I have made the decision that I was gonna get better.

And they did. And that just says so much of what belief truly has to do to creating the outcome and the life that we want for ourself. Yeah, 

Rebecca Zung: absolutely. Yeah. 

Rachel Scheer: Yeah. So negotiation. Yeah. Negotiating your life. You want? What does that mean? Cause I know you’re also 

Rebecca Zung: writing basic. Yeah. No. Negotiate your best life.

Rachel Scheer: Yeah. Yeah. How can we negotiate our best life? And what does that mean? Just 

Rebecca Zung: making sure that you stay on the offensive instead of going, you know, Hey, the narcissist is doing that. The narciss is just doing this. The narcissist is doing that. How are they getting away with this? How are they getting away with that?

How are they getting away with this? You know? I mean, it is so easy to fall into that. all the time and, and yeah, they’re always gonna be doing things, you know, But I always say like, football teams don’t win on a great defense. Right. You know, they have to have a really great offense, you know, So stay on your side of the fence.

Stay on looking at how you’re gonna be powerful, because there’s always going to be toxic people in the world. They will always be toxic. They will, they’re always, I mean, if, if each one of those, let just say, put it this way, right now, 15% of the population is either narcissistic or has some kind of disorder that is like an antisocial personality that that has some kind of overlay.

That means that they have. Something in them that causes them to have no empathy or. Can’t feel anything about other people. All right. So, and if each one of those people emotionally abuses just three people in their lifetimes, then that, that means that translates to 158 million people in the United States, or 3.4 billion people on the planet.

That’s nearly half of us. And that’s just, if they emotionally abuse three people, I, it’s probably way more than that. Hmm. So the, the, the likelihood is it’s pretty much all of us who are going to. Bump on encounter 

Rachel Scheer: this at some point in our lives. Yeah. 

Rebecca Zung: Yeah. Right. So we have to learn how to deal with this, you know, as regular, reasonable people.

I call it the, you know, the rps of the world. Right. You know, if we’re gonna have to, you know, we can’t change them, we just said they’re not gonna change. Mm-hmm. . So thinking that we’re gonna change those people is not the answer. Hmm. The answer is here. So negotiating our best lives. That’s the answer. And so becoming the most powerful version of ourselves, that’s the answer.

So making sure that we know how to feel strong inside and and slaying our lives 99% of the time. Right? That’s the answer. Hmm. And am I gonna feel, you know, joyous and. All the time. No, but am I gonna have strategies on how to pivot on how to, Okay, this happened to me. All right, fine. You know? Yes. That’s what I’m gonna be able to do.

Mm. So that, you know, that’s what I share, That’s what I teach people how to do. And yes, I teach people how to negotiate with narcissists too. Mm-hmm. , I teach people how to build strategy, how to build leverage, how to actually win their negotiations. Um, but then beyond that, when you get out of that room, once you learn how to negotiate and beat narcissists, there’s, it’s almost like you’ve won the Super Bowl.

Okay, and what else can I do? What else can I do? I can do anything in life now. You know, that’s 

Rachel Scheer: like, Yeah. So when negotiating your Beths life, what would you say is one of the like most pivotal things that somebody can do? Is it really like, stop negotiating with ourselves? Because I know that’s something that I speak to quite a bit like on my social media is like we’re all negotiating with ourselves every single day.

I don’t feel like this, I don’t wanna do this every single morning. I get. Bath and it’s like 40, 42 degrees. And even now where it’s getting colder out, I do it at, it’s like six 30 in the morning. But I have a choice in that moment, right? I can negotiate with myself and I can say, You know what, Don’t do it.

Just let’s do what’s easy, what’s most comfortable. Or I can say, You know what? I’m, I’m in charge. Rachel, Rachel, I’m in charge and we’re gonna get in that nice bath and we’re gonna sit in there until I tell you you’re gonna get out. And I know that sounds like something small, but it’s actually very impactful for me because I notice when I start negotiating with myself in some areas of my life mm-hmm.

I start doing in. So in other areas of my life, and I. Think I’m only where I’m at today because I’ve had to override some of that negotiation and really stepping into like, Nope, this is actually the direction we’re gonna go. We’re not gonna just, you know, lean into what’s mo easy and what’s most comfortable, which is often what the brain wants 

Rebecca Zung: to do.

Mm-hmm. , I love the word decide. For so many reasons. So the word decide is actually, I call it the deciding factor. So decide actually the root of the word decide is side, which is actually to kill, like homicide, you know? Suicide. I never thought about that. Yeah. And so when you’re deciding you’re actually, it, the, the word decided act actually has redemptive power.

I think of it as like redemption. Because you are actually drawing a line in the sand. You’re actually, um, making a choice. You’re actually telling the universe, like the universe actually starts lining up for you and starts making things happen for you, you’re actually saying universe, Things are, are changing right here, right now.

Um, now it is this. Being cut off. You know I’m cutting off. You are cutting off Any other possibilities. I’m deciding now. I’m killing off any other possibilities. I’m deciding that this is happening for my life. You’re telling the universe. I’m deciding that from here on forward, this is how, and that’s what happened with me on that mountain top.

Hmm. You know, I went up to that mountain top and I decided I was no longer a victim and I was gonna be in creation mode. And every time I said, uh, you know, Oh, you know, this person’s doing this to me and this is happening, and why is this happening to me? And you know, every. , you fall prey at those thoughts.

You’re in victim mode. Mm-hmm. and you’re, you’re falling into allowing that person mm-hmm. to, to take over control. And you need to pivot into what can I do instead? That’s gonna be in creation mode. And what, you know, I think of as God’s plan for you or what, you know, what the universe plan for you. I mean, cuz God wants you to be, I mean, I don.

You know, too, like preachy here, but you know, God, universe, whatever, wants you to be serving the highest intention for yourself, for your soul, you know, that’s why you’re here on this planet. You know, you’re a unique soul. You’re here for a reason. Mm-hmm. . And, and, and that’s what it is. Serve your highest intention for your soul.

Mm. Your soul’s inside there going, I’m here for a purpose. Yeah. 

Rachel Scheer: That’s massively powerful and I’ve never ever thought about decide from like that perspective as kind of like killing, but killing everything that’s not serving you and not in the direction that you’re moving in. And, and I love Tony Robbins stuff, but he always talks about like, Change happens in one moment.

It doesn’t happen. Like everything’s just like leading up to, but it’s making that decision and saying, I’m done. I’m not being here anymore. I’m going this direction just like you did when you were at the top of the mountain and you’re like, This person’s outta my life. You can’t be here with me at the top of this mountain.

You’re gone. This is where I’m going. And I think that’s just such a powerful. Moment when we step into that. I know most people can think of moments in their life where they, they just reached that point and they were like kind of on that wishy washy place for so long, which just takes so much energy when we’re in that middle ground where like, I kind of wanna go here.

I kind of wanna go here. And we’re like in that contemplation state, like that’s just an energy, like sucker of, probably not word to use, No energy. That’s so true. Killer. But then when you decide it’s like this. There’s this power that comes over you and your and it and that knowing too, that you get 

Rebecca Zung: with it, right?

Decide, kill it off redemptive power. 

Rachel Scheer: Yeah. I love that. That’s so powerful. Well, you put so much awesome information out there on how to slay narcissist, how to negotiate with ’em, and also how to negotiate to create the life that you want for yourself. So on all ends of the spectrum for people, where can people learn more about you?

Follow you? I know you got an awesome book here coming up soon as well. Yeah, 

Rebecca Zung: it’s coming. Soon. Um, you can follow me. Uh, well definitely subscribe to my YouTube channel, which is, and then Rebecca Zung, e s q, and then. My Instagram is at Rebecca ung. I’m on TikTok now at Rebecca ung as well, and I do have a free crush my negotiation prep worksheet for everybody.

It’s a free 15 page e-book, which everybody can grab, which [email protected]. I’ve had people win their entire negotiations. Wow. Just on that. It’s really, really super cool freebie. It’s like it’s not your normal freebie. It’s actually a. Uh, super substantive freebie. So, um, definitely go grab that for sure.

Yeah, everybody 

Rachel Scheer: go check out Rebecca Zung and get her free download. We’ll put all of that here in the show notes. And Rebecca, it has been an honor having you on today. I could pick your brain for probably another hour, but I wanna be respectful for your time and every. Do us a favor, take a screenshot of today’s episode, share it on your story.

Take Rebecca Zung tag at Rachel she and share madness and share this with a friend. If you got a ton of value from this episode, and this is Ben Share madness.


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